Vorobyev, Progressive Overload, and RPEs
I first heard it from my weightlifting coach. Then I read it in Supertraining. Then I read it in some of Pavel's works. Vorobyev stated that some of the best results in strength gains are made with sharp changes in workloads/training intensities, for example: 70%-85%-75%-90%...Louis Simmons makes the argument that the traditional Progressive Overload system is dead and the Conjugate Method is superior for making progress in strength results. Yet guys like "Capt. Kirk" Karwoski squated over 1000lbs in the 275lbs. class on Progressive Overload training. The RPE scale, or Rate of Perceived Exertion, is a method of rating the effort of a lift, whether quantity known or unknown. How does it apply when your supposed to be training with 80% of your max? On the surface, none of this seems to tie together. But I think they're all related.
I have a friend who trains for strongman. He is clean. He gets very frustrated about his perceived lack of progress because guys younger than him lift more than him, but have "assistance" that he has chosen not to use. He has tried a conjugate approach, but routinely gets injured following it--too much neurological and subsequently, endocrine stress. I suggested a more traditional approach, using the Progressive Overload Method. He is in the fitness industry and also just opened a new facility. So he has things like marketing, training clients, employees, etc., to worry about, which apparently, the younger guys he's competing against, do not. I got this idea after reading an e-mail of his: His training with stones with an RPE of 7-8. He did not mention the if the weight of the stones was changing.
The key to the puzzle is simply stress, or rather, how the body responds to it. Training is stress. It is always "bad" stress (distress) because it tears the body down. Then it grows back again, stronger. And on goes the training cycle and the training process. But what happens when you get in a fight with your wife or you feel pressure from late bills or you have to fire an employee or that big promotion you were hoping for is given to Johnson down the hall or your child is admitted to the ER? You experience more stress, possibly too much stress. So as a result your 80% squat which is supposed to correlate to an RPE of 8 (100% = an RPE of 10) feels like a ton on your back. You grind out your reps, cut 1 or 2 short, rack it, and rate it a 9 on the RPE scale--if you're measuring. Or what happens when on the flip side, you get the promotion, you make passionate love to your bride, you sell your house for 100K more than you bought it for, and your kid gets into that exclusive private school? Again, you experience more stress, but this time it's "good" stress (eustress) and go to the gym for your training session. You pick up 85% on your deadlift for the prescribed number of reps and rate it a 7 on the RPE scale. It feels light, really light. Do you keep to the protocol, or do you max out cause you haven't felt this good since that meet in 2003? Or how about those days when everything feels "fine" but the weights don't move--You know, this classic paradox: You feel amped and get to the gym only to feel slow and weak; and you drag your sorry tired butt to the gym, take forever to warm-up, stall by talking to your buddy or some guy you don't know but have a fantastic training session and hit a PR. Where do those come from? I think this is where Vorobyev for Normal Joes comes in.
Physically, the loads are relatively smooth, but emotionally, they can be a roller coaster. So what looks on paper as traditional Progressive Overload training can actually become almost close to Max Effort Method training, which of course is a huge part of the Westside's Conjugate Method of training. Here's what I mean: you're on a traditonal PO cycle that looks like the this: 70%-75%-80%. It should have an RPE correlation of 7-7.5-8. But it probably doesn't--Life interrupted. It probably looked more like this on the RPE: 7-8-8.5. For many, 85% is a 5 or 6RM, which, interestingly, is where Louie recommends a beginner start a Max Effort cycle--3 weeks: 5RM, 3RM, 1RM, then change the exercise.
So, why does the Conjugate Method work for some, but not for others and the Progressive Overload Method work for some but not for others? Some may argue application--the trainee just doesn't know how to use a system. Absolutely. But assuming someone "fails" with one method but not the other, what's the problem? I think Vorobyev is the problem. If someone has a highly emotionally stressful job, the Progressive Overload method will probably work better for them. The rapid changes in training load won't necessarily be the weight on the bar, but the RPE of a particular exercise or training session. If someone has an emotionally stable job, the Conjugate Method would be a good idea for them. They'll get the sharp contrast between loads based on daily loading. This is the best explanation I can offer.
So, what do I use? I use a variation of all of them: I set up my program the following way: L-H-L-H. My light days are focused on speed and technical execution of my lifts. I allow for some volume, but don't let my RPEs get over an 8, or a 7 if I'm feeling tired (Truthfully, I'll keep them anywhere between a 6 and an 8.). On my heavy days, I pick an exercise that will fortify a weakness in my classic lifts. Right now, I'm not using the Max Effort method, because I have a new body from Z and I'm trying to feel/work my way around inside it--to learn how to use it. So, I'm keeping my RPEs between an 8 and a 9 on these days. I am guessing on the loads based off my last training cycle. So far, I feel good. I know guys like Alwyn Cosgrove believe you can't train yourself (I think he just blogged about that), but at this point, I can't not train myself. I'm trying to figure out, for the first time in my life, what my body is telling me with regards to training. And the Z is helping me do it. I am very happy with my progress so far. I know it's only 6 weeks since I've been back on the platform, but I can't remember when I felt this good about my training.
Training for Friday, 12.8.06--Light Day
A. Power Clean, from below knee: 55% x2x12; 90kg/2 x12 sets, 45s rest
These felt fast and light--the easiest this position has ever felt. Hook grip felt very strong.
B. Overhead Squat: 7-5x5; 60kg/5, 65kg/5, 70kg/5 x3; 75/5; 90s rest
Kept these light--just working on position as I have a volume-heavy back squat planned for the next session.
C. Behind the neck press, narrow snatch-grip: 4-6x4-6; 42.5kg/6 x4, 60s rest
Shoulders were sore and tired from the Presses on Wednesday. Have heavy jerks planned for the next training session.
This session felt great. I felt particularly good about the positioning of the clean and the overhead squat. I like the way everything is starting to feel.
I first heard it from my weightlifting coach. Then I read it in Supertraining. Then I read it in some of Pavel's works. Vorobyev stated that some of the best results in strength gains are made with sharp changes in workloads/training intensities, for example: 70%-85%-75%-90%...Louis Simmons makes the argument that the traditional Progressive Overload system is dead and the Conjugate Method is superior for making progress in strength results. Yet guys like "Capt. Kirk" Karwoski squated over 1000lbs in the 275lbs. class on Progressive Overload training. The RPE scale, or Rate of Perceived Exertion, is a method of rating the effort of a lift, whether quantity known or unknown. How does it apply when your supposed to be training with 80% of your max? On the surface, none of this seems to tie together. But I think they're all related.
I have a friend who trains for strongman. He is clean. He gets very frustrated about his perceived lack of progress because guys younger than him lift more than him, but have "assistance" that he has chosen not to use. He has tried a conjugate approach, but routinely gets injured following it--too much neurological and subsequently, endocrine stress. I suggested a more traditional approach, using the Progressive Overload Method. He is in the fitness industry and also just opened a new facility. So he has things like marketing, training clients, employees, etc., to worry about, which apparently, the younger guys he's competing against, do not. I got this idea after reading an e-mail of his: His training with stones with an RPE of 7-8. He did not mention the if the weight of the stones was changing.
The key to the puzzle is simply stress, or rather, how the body responds to it. Training is stress. It is always "bad" stress (distress) because it tears the body down. Then it grows back again, stronger. And on goes the training cycle and the training process. But what happens when you get in a fight with your wife or you feel pressure from late bills or you have to fire an employee or that big promotion you were hoping for is given to Johnson down the hall or your child is admitted to the ER? You experience more stress, possibly too much stress. So as a result your 80% squat which is supposed to correlate to an RPE of 8 (100% = an RPE of 10) feels like a ton on your back. You grind out your reps, cut 1 or 2 short, rack it, and rate it a 9 on the RPE scale--if you're measuring. Or what happens when on the flip side, you get the promotion, you make passionate love to your bride, you sell your house for 100K more than you bought it for, and your kid gets into that exclusive private school? Again, you experience more stress, but this time it's "good" stress (eustress) and go to the gym for your training session. You pick up 85% on your deadlift for the prescribed number of reps and rate it a 7 on the RPE scale. It feels light, really light. Do you keep to the protocol, or do you max out cause you haven't felt this good since that meet in 2003? Or how about those days when everything feels "fine" but the weights don't move--You know, this classic paradox: You feel amped and get to the gym only to feel slow and weak; and you drag your sorry tired butt to the gym, take forever to warm-up, stall by talking to your buddy or some guy you don't know but have a fantastic training session and hit a PR. Where do those come from? I think this is where Vorobyev for Normal Joes comes in.
Physically, the loads are relatively smooth, but emotionally, they can be a roller coaster. So what looks on paper as traditional Progressive Overload training can actually become almost close to Max Effort Method training, which of course is a huge part of the Westside's Conjugate Method of training. Here's what I mean: you're on a traditonal PO cycle that looks like the this: 70%-75%-80%. It should have an RPE correlation of 7-7.5-8. But it probably doesn't--Life interrupted. It probably looked more like this on the RPE: 7-8-8.5. For many, 85% is a 5 or 6RM, which, interestingly, is where Louie recommends a beginner start a Max Effort cycle--3 weeks: 5RM, 3RM, 1RM, then change the exercise.
So, why does the Conjugate Method work for some, but not for others and the Progressive Overload Method work for some but not for others? Some may argue application--the trainee just doesn't know how to use a system. Absolutely. But assuming someone "fails" with one method but not the other, what's the problem? I think Vorobyev is the problem. If someone has a highly emotionally stressful job, the Progressive Overload method will probably work better for them. The rapid changes in training load won't necessarily be the weight on the bar, but the RPE of a particular exercise or training session. If someone has an emotionally stable job, the Conjugate Method would be a good idea for them. They'll get the sharp contrast between loads based on daily loading. This is the best explanation I can offer.
So, what do I use? I use a variation of all of them: I set up my program the following way: L-H-L-H. My light days are focused on speed and technical execution of my lifts. I allow for some volume, but don't let my RPEs get over an 8, or a 7 if I'm feeling tired (Truthfully, I'll keep them anywhere between a 6 and an 8.). On my heavy days, I pick an exercise that will fortify a weakness in my classic lifts. Right now, I'm not using the Max Effort method, because I have a new body from Z and I'm trying to feel/work my way around inside it--to learn how to use it. So, I'm keeping my RPEs between an 8 and a 9 on these days. I am guessing on the loads based off my last training cycle. So far, I feel good. I know guys like Alwyn Cosgrove believe you can't train yourself (I think he just blogged about that), but at this point, I can't not train myself. I'm trying to figure out, for the first time in my life, what my body is telling me with regards to training. And the Z is helping me do it. I am very happy with my progress so far. I know it's only 6 weeks since I've been back on the platform, but I can't remember when I felt this good about my training.
Training for Friday, 12.8.06--Light Day
A. Power Clean, from below knee: 55% x2x12; 90kg/2 x12 sets, 45s rest
These felt fast and light--the easiest this position has ever felt. Hook grip felt very strong.
B. Overhead Squat: 7-5x5; 60kg/5, 65kg/5, 70kg/5 x3; 75/5; 90s rest
Kept these light--just working on position as I have a volume-heavy back squat planned for the next session.
C. Behind the neck press, narrow snatch-grip: 4-6x4-6; 42.5kg/6 x4, 60s rest
Shoulders were sore and tired from the Presses on Wednesday. Have heavy jerks planned for the next training session.
This session felt great. I felt particularly good about the positioning of the clean and the overhead squat. I like the way everything is starting to feel.
posted by Geoff Neupert at
9:23 AM
5 Comments:
geoff I think the key difference in the conjugat emethod and progressive method is that conjugate allows one to really focus on weak points in a very direct and specific manner whereas liner does not.
of course there will always be greats that will do amazing things on any system. the conjugate system is one to help all those non natural elites that have to focus very hard on bringing their weak links up to make gains on the classical lift.
For example, if you only sumo dl and have great leverage for that your erectors will only develop static strenght and only in a small ROM. If your squat require more back strenght and you don nothing but good leverage postitions how will you develop the erector strength except for special exercises for that purpose exactly?
If your classic lifts always stick in the same place how does one blast past that?
Louies system does allow for drastic changes in loads as well as dynamic effort days load vary from 50% to max effort days 101+ % within the same week.every week.
I think there are many many reasons why one athlete prefers one system but for those that have never even tried WSB or even understand the methods they are missing a golden opportunity to get stronger.
jmo
ohyeah and i agree with you about the cogswell post, I could only train myself now, way too many indiosyncracies for any one else to understand my needs and recovery ability.
cogsgrove.
Here's the thing about both methods: If you're generally emotionally taxed, almost on a daily basis, CM may not be for you. Too much variety, too much choice, too much waviness (is that a word?) of load that may/probably increase emotional stress. POM, although certainly not optimal, may accomodate the emotional stress. Plus, you can still work weak muscles after major lifts, or partial lifts.
Bottom line, I like them both. I have used both. My current program is a hybrid.
Here's the thing about both methods: If you're generally emotionally taxed, almost on a daily basis, CM may not be for you. Too much variety, too much choice, too much waviness (is that a word?) of load that may/probably increase emotional stress. POM, although certainly not optimal, may accomodate the emotional stress. Plus, you can still work weak muscles after major lifts, or partial lifts.
Bottom line, I like them both. I have used both. My current program is a hybrid.
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